Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  27:36

Yeah. Which I have to say, over here in the US, and I'm sure all over the world there such polarization, there is such not having conversation about what we're having in common. And I will cop to the fact that there are days that I feel very, not even interested in having, yet I know, in my heart, when we're really honest, that the real path to healing on a global level on us is in connecting to our humanity with one another and our similarities, actually. I remember being out doing work I did back when in my 20s as a young, white, middle class woman, and I found myself in really drug and trenched areas and I would sit and have conversation with, you know, a 65 year old, longtime drug user, prostitute and I'm this 20 something right out of college. But in like that moment you just described what we had in common, ironically, was more than what we had different, you know, didn't happen all the time. But that is what I think you're speaking to and so you've got this vision of creating a space for these voices creating a space for us to change the…

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  29:09

So yeah, I think the work that's been done up to today, in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion has been really useful to get us to where we are. But I think that the kind of intersection of what happened in 2020, in terms of the pandemic and also the heightened awareness of issues surrounding race and ethnicity, and, you know, very, very sadly, as a result of the death of George Floyd and many, many others, you know, I suppose the one good thing that has come out of that, if I can say it like that, because it's really, I mean, it upsets me so much that these things have had to happen, right? But at least there's a different quality of conversation that's taking place. And so I think that people are paying attention to the issues of race and diversity and otherness and separation in a slightly different way because there's so many different elements to marginalization. Some of it is socio economics, it's sexuality, it’s religion, I mean, there's so many different things. And what we're realizing is that the stuff that we have available is just not helpful anymore. So how many times does an organization do unconscious bias training or speak about kind of gender equality? And until it says, okay, we need to look at this from a different angle. Right? That's really the focus of what I'm trying to do with the Center for belonging and understanding. Because I don't, I mean, gosh, there's two resources that are available for free at the website centerforbelongingandunderstanding.com. Okay, one is about something called the amplify approach. And it speaks about being an advocate and an ally and an ambassador, and having a clear ambition. And when you've got all of those things, everything is elevated, and therefore amplified, including who you are, and how the work gets done. And then the other piece is something that is called words matter. And it's about etymology of words. And in that training, I explain why words like diversity, and Equity and Inclusion are not actually really helpful. Because I think words have DNA. And when you look at the history, for example, even of the word diversity, it has the same origin as the word divorce. So when I say that to somebody, they're like, oh, and then they're like, oh, okay, now I'm uncomfortable using the word diversity, because diversity doesn't seem to be bringing us together. And, you know, if it was bringing us together, and if we were having a different conversation, and we were approaching things from a point of connection, you know, it's working, but that's not what's happening, right?

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  32:23

Well, I do love so much of what you're saying, I love that. You mentioned a few minutes ago that what we've done so far got us to here, you know, when we can sit into hindsight 2020, which should have been done differently, but we've gotten to this point. And then the horrific parts of 2020 George Florida like you, I can almost stick my head in the sand. It's so painful for me to think about yet I do think that what we've gotten is that rawness has brought us to having these conversations that emotion and so we're really ready, craving, if you will, the next iteration of these conversations, I'm struck by this part of me that's feeling both excited and frustrated that we haven't figured that we haven't come together by now, you want to mean that? Yeah, helped me with that, go for it.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  33:22

Yeah. So I get that. And I think what's coming to my mind is like, sometimes we feel as if, you know, I mean, I've got two kids and I'm giving them the same message again, and again, and again. You know, like, for example, the message at the moment for my son, 15 year old boy, anyone who's been a 15 year old is going to get it, just leaves his clothes on the floor, it really irritates me, right? Now, what I have a choice to make, I can keep reminding him. Or I can just stop and in stay in my frustration. So for me, I'm going to keep reminding him and just like use words of love and all of these other things, and he will sometimes ignore me, he will sometimes listen. And I think the reason why I share that is because for me, the key thing is about meeting people where they are rather than where I would like them to be. Because if I'm and I've done this in the past, so I've learned this through experience. If I try and take people to where I want them to be that actually the conversation is not productive in any way, shape, or form. Right? And it creates tension and frustration and energy and perhaps we will never speak again. Now imagine if I'm saying to my son, if you don't sort your clothes out every single day, then we're done. That is not the basis for a good relationship.  If I meet him where he is, and encouraged him gently, eventually the message has kind of come in, you know so for me, it's very much about how do I meet people where they are. And I can tell you, I have some really difficult conversations with some people who, gosh it sounds awful, but they're kind of like verging on the edge of racist and being racist. Yeah, I couldn't even get the word out. You see how? Yeah, you know, and people challenge me and they're like, Well, why do you speak to them. And I know that if they're willing to have a conversation with me with all of this, then they know, somewhere within them, that there's work to be done, and if I'm the vehicle for that, despite all the challenge, I will have that conversation.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  35:44

Oh, my gosh, that so I am taking all that down because I think when you spoke it, it's so true that this sense of how we engage in the conversation, and I just wrote it down here, if I try to take people where I want them to be, then we've missed the opportunity to really have that. Even the possibility of changing or shifting or connection. And that sense of understanding and belonging or belonging and understanding. My heart needed to hear that Saiyyadah, I will tell you there that right now, and in this time, in this moment, I'm sitting with my own opinions about things that are going on in my country around the COVID. And those things, I sit in my own and stew in my own opinion, which I believe is right. And doesn't everybody right? Yet, how do we have conversation where that is really productive and moves the needle? Right? That is so good. And thank you for bringing it down to picking up your clothes. Sometimes those simple metaphors make it easier to comprehend. So in your mind, where do we go as, in a perfect world, I mean, this vision that you have folks belonging of those who all feel like they are other? And realizing that actually we all have more in common? what's the payoff of that work?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  37:13

I mean, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know, is that when we help other people to belong in to understand we also help ourselves. So that's one thing. And I think this apply, you know, anyone that's doing this work for me, it's so funny, because I've run a couple of informal sessions, let's put it like that on some of the theories that I have in decimating that and immediately people take it and they spread it. And, you know, I've heard that some boards have changed the name of the diversity group as a result of being told what the words Diversity, Equity and Inclusion mean, in terms of their etymology. And so there's shift taking place where now people are calling  their diversity groups, something belonging. And I'm just like, okay, you know, what, I am so pleased that even if that is a little shift, then the impact of that in a few years’ time is just going to be enormous. So  I don't actually, I can't articulate what the ambition is,  but what I do know is, it is  just over 100 years ago, the word racism kind of came around. And, gosh, that doesn't mean it mean that there wasn't prejudice, because there really was right, like just a word generations, but the word, and it's really interesting how that's been adopted all around the world. And so one hopes that in 100 years’ time, maybe that word might not exist in the same way that it does today. And I'm speaking about race, but I don't just mean race, I mean, all of the other different things. I mean gender, I mean sexuality, I mean ethnicity, age, you know, you name it, ability, disability, these things. So there's so much work to get done. But there are there are so many silos that currently exist. And certainly one of the things that I found in my research is that, you know, do you conform to the description of the silos? Do you take on those labels or do you just say, Look, everyone is other to some degree? You know, yeah, yeah.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  39:57

You know, when you said that I'm kind of going I'm a high feeler. So I was going into my feeling state and when I asked you that question about mission, and vision, I can't even just happen to my heart. And I can remember times where I have felt other. And I could feel how that feels in my body outside disconnected. And then I can remember times where I felt that I belonged. And that feels so much different in my body. What if more people felt that more often? I mean, that's sort of super simple, and maybe a little woo woo. But what if, through the changing of language, through the researcher doing, through the experiences of collectively, we all had more of those moments where we genuinely felt that we belonged more often, the world would change, because I know now, when we spend time and feeling other and disconnected, that affects how we show up in the world on a daily basis, even affects the conversation in line at the store, it affects everything. What a beautiful mission you're on. So Saiyyadah I want to know, because you're doing big work, so how do you manage your two children  and your marriage and your life and your dissertation? And how do you live purposefully to make all that happen?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  41:35

So all of that stuff is only for a short period of time. Because I just want to make it clear, I could not do, I could not live like this forever. You know, it's funny, I said to somebody the other day, I was like, I feel like I'm back to when I was in my early 30s, I was working like a consultant because you just constantly, you know, and now, I've made a conscious decision to do this. I've delegated as much as I can, some stuff is just on me, and that's fine. Right? And so that's number one. Number two is, I am very, very blessed in that my husband is just, you know, off the charts in terms of his support and contributing to the work, not just in conversations, but also, you know, logistics, you know, we had a conversation the other day like his [unsure 42:39], and I would be like, just get just get with train. But yeah, he loves doing that. So the things that he enjoys doing are the things that that I don't. And so I think that brings a nice balancing. When I'm working on something, I'm committed to it. So I'm now kind of very clear on what my boundaries are. And yeah, I think surround yourself with good people. Going back to that other piece about kind of saying that my tolerance levels at the moment, maybe a wee bit lower, so communicate. I'm very blessed that people around me are understanding but I also know that if I was going to be like this long term, it might create some tension in relationships. So within all of this carve out time for people. So the other week, I went to Covent Garden with my son, and we had pizza. And over the next few days, I'm going to go to Oxford with my daughter, and we're going to hang out. And, someone was told me that they were going to be late for a meeting, I managed to just go and sit and have a coffee with no content conversation with my husband. So making sure that those times still exist, I still make sure that I go and see my mom. And if I don't do these things, then it just feels as if part of my soul is kind of like eroded. And then it makes me feel as if I don't belong. And then who on earth am I to do this work? Right?

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  44:07

Right. Yeah, we say that one more time. Cut off just a little bit about after you make time for others. Can you say that again? Can you hear me? Can you hear me now?  Okay, good. Can you say again that part about how do you making time for others?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  44:36

Yeah, so I it is really important for me that I make time for my daughter, my son, my husband, my mom and myself. If I don't do that, I mean I think the key thing is if I don't do that, I'm eroding a little bit of me because they're really important people in my life and if I, not ignore them, but you know, if I don't make time for them and cultivate those relationships and make time for other people as well, then how can I feel like I belong in myself? And if I don't feel that I can belong, then why am I doing this work?

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  45:15

Exactly. It'd be like writing a book on, you know, destressing but not doing anything to destress, or writing a book on how to get good sleep, but staying up all night, never sleeping, right? You've got to find make sure that you belong. I also know, when I was talking to you on your podcast that you do guard your sleep, very important. Yeah. I was so struck by that, that in it, you've understood that in order for you to produce, you've got to go in and do that rest, that there is a direct connection. Right.?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  45:52

100%. And, to the point where, like, everyone that is around me knows that if my sleep is compromised, then it is not going to be good. And so, and it sounds really silly, right? But that means that they helped me. And everyone has something that's important to them. And it's kind of like, Well, why don't we just tell the people that that can help us that it matters, and whatever that thing is, then you can help somebody else, and they'll help you with the things that matter to you.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  46:27

I love that. So as I think about, you know, my work of helping people design very intentionally that container of their life, that content may vary. But how do you create that container where there's relationships that support you that there's healthy communication? I love that you mentioned boundaries very specifically, you know, I also you didn't use this word, but understand that there are seasons, where there are the seasons where you're going to be asked to do a lot more than others, or maybe your husband's going to need more energy, and then you might need so that they understand the ebb and flow. And then that real sense of what feeds your heart, and you mentioned specifically, your relationships with your people. I mean, it would be eroding a piece of you. So those have almost got to be put in place, before you can actually go out and do amazing work. Or I guess, ideally, that's the healthy way to do it. I don't know.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  47:22

I think for me, it is really, really important. I mean, like, I remember, when I was seven years old, I made three really, really significant decisions that are still important to me today. And one of them was about learning, and that learning is always going to be part of my life. The second one was that relationships are important and need time. And the third one was kind of like, you know, I'm really determined to live life on my terms in service of others. So there's this seven year old kid that's making decisions like that, right.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  47:56

You know, you have told me that before, and I'm like, she's at seven making those decisions. That's astonishing. But yeah,

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  48:03

but I think part of it is just because of some of the circumstances that I was in, right. So you know, actually, I mean, I look at my nieces and nephews, and I'm like, they're pretty smart kids. Now that's happen, yeah. And the reason I share that is because that stuff is really, really important to me. And so in some respects, I'm still living my life around those things. I kind of haven't always, I lost my way, but I feel as if I'm kind of like, back again, if that makes sense. Yeah. And that is the most critical thing and, you know, in terms of how I manage my day, I mean, really, honestly, like, I think there was divine intervention in my writing the book Results: the art and science of getting it done, before I'm doing this work. Because I mean, I look at my book on a regular basis, that sounds really silly, doesn't it? But you know, for the reminders of saying, okay, prioritize sleep, you know, how are you scheduling your time, making sure I only work on three projects at a time, right? Don't burn out, all of that kind of stuff. And I genuinely mean it when I say that book was written for me a year ago, that book is still written for me today. I am its customer.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  49:28

Now, I actually I love that you said that. I actually printed out one of my little freebies on how to get unstuck, and I printed out the worksheet and worked it myself. You know, I mean, it's not like you don't, these are tools that you've got to have. And you've got to be reminded, I'm so glad you read your own book. I hope

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  49:49

It is an irony, isn’t it?  If you produce the stuff and you're not using it. Well, I just there's something about that that just seems kind of disingenuous, isn't it?

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  49:57

Yes. So I love I love that. And so I all of a sudden that when you were talking, I went back to Stephen Covey. I remember listening to him on little cassette tapes. But the one of the seven habits, I think is like, keep the main thing, the main thing to kind of know what your main things are. And how do you keep those the main things when you've had these since you were seven, you know, and that when you're really back on track, you know, what's important to you? It's Yes, it's beautiful.  Saiyyadah what have I missed? What have I not asked you that you wish I had asked you, or there is something you want to share?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  50:41

What's something I want to share? I think the thing that I probably will want to share is a real encouragement for the listeners to do their own work, whatever that may be. You know, I think we're all in different places, whether you working with a coach, or a counselor or a therapist, the biggest gift that you can give to yourself and to your future generations, if you decide to have kids or to others that are around you now, is doing that work. And I say that, because sometimes people look at me, and they're like, Oh, you're so together? And I'm like, No, I have had 20 years of therapy, right. And I've been to numerous personal development courses, and I probably got every single book under the sun,  and that's possibly why I'm able to present in the way that I am. And, you know, in all of those other things, but if you don't do the work, you know, then I know, for me, all of the things that I didn't understand about myself and impacted relationships and impacted my work and other things, they would still be there. And I suppose those are the bits that I didn't like about myself. And so I worked on it,

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  52:06

You work on it, absolutely. So it doesn't just happen accidentally, you know, you don't just accidentally become really good at diving off the high dive, right? You practice.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  52:19

Someone said to me the other day, I mean, it was such a generous thing of them to do, and they said, Oh, you know, I really pay attention in the podcast when I'm interviewing people for mine. And my response was, Well, last year for my book, I knew that I was going to be doing about 50 different interviews where I was the guest. So the question I asked myself is, how do I be a good guest? And I watched every single David Letterman show on Netflix. I watched, gosh, Michael Parkinson, I watched a few other people. And I just thought, how are they interviewing? No, because? And how are the guests showing up? So what do I need to do in terms of being a good guest? What I didn't realize as I'm doing all of that, to be the guest is that I must have learned some skill of how to be the interviewer as well.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  53:13

Absolutely. Oh my gosh. So now I'm realizing I didn't do that much homework Saiyyadah, I have got to go do that.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  53:22

I had to really like how do I do this? Because I'm naturally really quite introverted. Oh, I used to avoid conversations, because for me, it would take so much energy. The thing is, now I learned the skill of how to do it. And so once you know, it just, you know, I can do this conversation at five o'clock on a Friday and not feel drained after it because I know how.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  53:46

exactly so. So if I can, I want to go back up at 50,000 feet and say that brilliance that you just shared can be applied to anything, you know, we can decide that we want to learn and build a particular muscle. And so you may be like, you were back after your car accident, you're sitting there, like you said, eating garbage and just not you know, watching television, and all of a sudden you're like, nope, you can build the muscle, you can feed yourself in the way you want to be fed and change the trajectory and show up differently. It's that I mean, it's kind of corny, but it's really true, right?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  54:29

It is. And I would also add, if I'm allowed to, t7o say that I'm also very deliberate about the things that I don't want to know how to do. So for example, that I mean, like, it's just for me, some stuff is like, I just need to know someone who can do it. You know, like, some of the technical stuff on setting up the podcast, you know, how do I get it uploaded? I'm really honest to God, I'm so not interested in that. I just need to know someone who can do that.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  54:58

Exactly, no, it's great. And so what if we did that about everything? And even like you said, in your marriage, you each do the things you know that you have interest in and build relationship. And then you don't have to do all things and I bet there's a lot of folks who feel like they just, they have to do all these other things, which means they don't have time for themselves. It's kind of a way that you can stay stuck. No. So going back to your advice a few minutes ago, get help, do the work, hire a coach, ask somebody asked the question, sit with a journal, give yourself the gift of exploration, inside asking yourself what you want, and we call it work. But it's that exploration, it's not settling.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  55:48

Oh you will love the book; you mentioned the settling. I mean, the beginning of the book Results: the art and science of getting it done speaks about the problem of settling story in there about my son, and whenever we go to the States, we're kind of like have a budget set aside and they can spend it on what they want and he wanted some night trainers. And we couldn't he couldn't find them. And then I won't share anything else. But when you read that story, okay, it's a real sense of understanding of what happens when one settles.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  56:19

Ah, okay, teaser. I love that Saiyyadah, I love that. So if you had to put your motto or something you would want the world to know, like on a bumper sticker, three, four or five word, is there something that comes to mind? Put you on the spot here.

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  56:39

Live life, enjoy it be present.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  56:42

Live life, enjoy it be present. I love it. I love it. And if you find yourself veering off path, like losing your way, what's your quickest way back to your stop?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  56:58

I stop. I mean, literally, like I would rather stop, and assess the landscape, and then decide what to do. The times when I have not stopped. It's been horrendous. But sometimes a pause even just requires a minute, right?

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  57:19

I love that. So even that pause, the word pause had even a different flavor than stop but that pause or stop, and assess. Beautiful advice. Okay, last question. If you had to choose, is it dark chocolate or milk chocolate?

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  57:40

It depends if I'm on a health kick or not. If I am on a health kick, like 85 or 90% dark chocolate. If I’m not, it is going to be milk chocolate.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  57:50

Okay, good. Well, there's a place for all of it. I just wondered which one it will be. Saiyyadah, I am constantly in awe of you and your work and your insight and your humanity and your big picture thinking and how you have merged what I see as this incredible intellect and this profoundly large heart of yours. And I am so honored to know you and excited for everyone who intersects with you and your life and your work that will trickle out way beyond. Thank you for your time

 

Speaker: Saiyyadah Zaidi  58:28

Thank you Cheri, you know is always such a gift to speak to you and you ask such brilliant questions and give me really fascinating insights in the way that you reflect back so I have so much reverence and respect for you and it's just been such a big honor to be here.

 

Speaker: Cheri Honeycutt  58:47

It's great. I love your friend. Thank you so much.